FAIL: I should be voting for the country, not for myself
Posted by Michael at 8/28/2008 12:10 PM 
Categories: Personal Arguments, Domestic Issues, Philosophy Arguments, Not Convincing
Categories: Personal Arguments, Domestic Issues, Philosophy Arguments, Not Convincing
This argument is an attempt to take down all my other arguments by claiming that my premise is incorrect, that I should give my vote to whoever will make the country better rather than who's best for my own personal situation.
First of all, the idea that I should bow to any higher power is something I find ridiculous, and your belief that I am somehow morally inferior to you for refusing to do so is something I find deeply offensive. I love my country because it affords me the opportunity to live my best possible life. The god or gods I choose to worship are private, my business, not yours, and I'm not interested in your input on the matter. I will not kneel at your altar, regardless of whether it's for a sentient supernatural being, or for a secular construct such as Country or Society or The Greater Good.
Kindly keep your religious or quasi-religious beliefs to yourself and out of my government. And while you're at it, kindly keep your laws off of my body and out of my pocketbook.
But for humor's sake, let me grant you the premise. We should all vote to make the country as a whole better, right?
Well, the country, as a whole, is comprised of individuals. By making the lives of the individual citizens of this country better, you and I together can make this country better by induction.
Now, as it so happens, I in fact am one such individual. So by voting towards my own self-interest, I am in fact improving the country.
And, even more so, by voting towards my interests, you can help individuals other than yourself: namely, me! And that means you can improve the country too! So it looks like you just convinced yourself to vote for McCain! Neat!
Isn't collectivist political philosophy wonderful?
First of all, the idea that I should bow to any higher power is something I find ridiculous, and your belief that I am somehow morally inferior to you for refusing to do so is something I find deeply offensive. I love my country because it affords me the opportunity to live my best possible life. The god or gods I choose to worship are private, my business, not yours, and I'm not interested in your input on the matter. I will not kneel at your altar, regardless of whether it's for a sentient supernatural being, or for a secular construct such as Country or Society or The Greater Good.
Kindly keep your religious or quasi-religious beliefs to yourself and out of my government. And while you're at it, kindly keep your laws off of my body and out of my pocketbook.
But for humor's sake, let me grant you the premise. We should all vote to make the country as a whole better, right?
Well, the country, as a whole, is comprised of individuals. By making the lives of the individual citizens of this country better, you and I together can make this country better by induction.
Now, as it so happens, I in fact am one such individual. So by voting towards my own self-interest, I am in fact improving the country.
And, even more so, by voting towards my interests, you can help individuals other than yourself: namely, me! And that means you can improve the country too! So it looks like you just convinced yourself to vote for McCain! Neat!
Isn't collectivist political philosophy wonderful?
Well... unlike other higher powers, the welfare of your country affects you quite a bit.
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Democrates has no bushes.
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I couldn't follow your logic all the way through. Let me just say this: The greater good IS made up of individual goods. But the rights and liberties of other individuals must be protected in the individual's pursuit. That is a point ignored by both sides in this argument.
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1-800-FREEDOM
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Care to provide specifics about how exactly it does so?
'Cuz, you know, in the abstract, that statement is pretty groundless. It's like saying that karma affects me, or like saying I'm affected by whether or not God is pleased with me.
Quantify it. Solidify it. Make it real. What *is* the "welfare of my country"? How do I measure it? How do I know if it's increasing or decreasing? And how do I determine its effect on me?
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I think Ari is pointing out that voting purely from a selfish, self-interested perspective is not always good. Sometimes you need to put your fellow man, society, nation or the globe as a whole above yourself. That might mean supporting something that in the near-term will be detrimental to yourself, or that may impose hardship.
I doubt that anyone on this forum will be able to convince you to vote based on the interests of other people. Which means any argument that appeals to social conscience or humanitarianism is not going to sway you.
It seems a waste of time to try to find the few Obama policies that may appeal to your more self-interested nature, since they will always be outweighed by the other policies that go against your core beliefs.
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Hi Tucker, and thanks for chiming in. I think your overall assessment of my disposition is correct. I'm curious about one or two points you bring up...
"I think Ari is pointing out that voting purely from a selfish, self-interested perspective is not always good."
"Good" is a value judgment. In what sense is it ever good to act against my own self-interest? Good for whom, or for what? I don't get it.
"Sometimes you need to put your fellow man, society, nation or the globe as a whole above yourself."
Why do I need to do so? I don't mean this in a confrontational tone. I would genuinely like to understand why you believe I need to put anyone else above myself - and why those people shouldn't be putting ME above THEMselves instead.
Besides, my fellow man has a vote, just like I do. Let my fellow man vote for Obama if that's what he wants or needs. Why should I vote for Obama on my fellow man's behalf?
My fellow man is every bit as much an adult as I am. I will not condescend my fellow man by treating him like a child who needs me to do things for him, or like a teenager who flat-out expects me to cater to his desires on principle.
So how about this: Instead of voting for what I think will benefit my fellow man, I vote for what I think will benefit myself. My fellow man will vote for what he thinks will benefit him. And between all of us doing so together, we can come up with a political course that we can all more or less tolerate.
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I doubt that anyone on this forum will be able to convince you to vote based on the interests of other people. Which means any argument that appeals to social conscience or humanitarianism is not going to sway you.
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